Did someone throw a boat anchor behind my car at 4500?

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Jimmy
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Re: Did someone throw a boat anchor behind my car at 4500?

Post by Jimmy »

Good point, Malcolm.
If grinding a custom cam, why not make it work with standard hardware?
Unless it's a reground stocker rather than a new blank, in which case an offset key may be needed.
In baseball, running into someone is apparently a "collision".
But doing the same thing in a car somehow makes it an "accident".
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Re: Did someone throw a boat anchor behind my car at 4500?

Post by max71 »

Jimmy as you know adding offset keys has been standard for years. Moss offers a lot of sizes. Unless its a stock replacement most all cams have to be timed. This is a brand new billet cam because I didn't want any problems. The timing for this cam is 103 degrees after TDC. APT, Dave Anton said if we didn't time it that wouldn't be the end of the world. However, if we wanted it right it should be those specs. Not much advance.

When we first did the measurements and ordered keys all advanced it too much. I have to go through my notes but the offset key in there now is very slight. I just went through all my notes. Originally I ordered a 3 and 4 degree offset key which were too much. Finally ended up putting in a 2 degree which brought it almost exactly to 103. Even flopped the key and it read 103 before TDC so unless we just were idiots (possible) we put it in right.

The specs on the Huffaker cam that I finally got by Dave Anton measuring the ruined cam was 228 degree @50 with .294 lift with a 108 degree lobe angle. I lOVED this cam but since Joe didn't have records I bought the VP-11 as something available and well made. The VP-11 is 224 degree @50 with .280 lift with a 106 degree lobe angle.

My dyno numbers weren't great showing the head wasn't breathing right at higher RPMs. Don't get excited because I didn't mention this before. The dyno was done right after break in of the engine. Since I found the head was done incorrectly and now that was straightened out and tailored to the VP-11 I hoped this would fix it. I'm wondering if the Huffaker cam with more lift is what made it charge so well into redline.

We never timed the Huffaker cam although in hindsight maybe it should've been but it pulled from 1500 until well into the red.

I'm not unhappy with the VP-11 if I can fix this issue and its not the cam. It pulls very strong until 4500.
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Re: Did someone throw a boat anchor behind my car at 4500?

Post by max71 »

Here's the dyno numbers. Oops. Jpegs too big for this wimpy site. 8) I uploaded them here http://www.hipnoticinc.com/dyno/ They big enough that if you download them they're easy to read.
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Re: Did someone throw a boat anchor behind my car at 4500?

Post by max71 »

Just got off the phone with Dave Anton. He said for the problem I'm having to be cam timing considering I'm using a 2 degree key it would have to be off a whole tooth. I mentioned I've witnessed that and the whole engine wouldn't run right at all and he confirmed this.

Relief as far as a benchmark goes might be in sight. Dave said they plan on doing a bunch of MGB testing of all their cams on a dyno in a couple weeks. They'll be getting all specs like peak HP etc and even switch needles and timing while on the dyno. I think its best to wait on that. Then if I duplicate it and still have issues I give up.

He mentioned a well known MG guy back east got a VP-11 and did minor work and it cut 2 seconds off his 0-60 time.

So lets see what happens with their testing. Unless someone with a gas analyzer surfaces. I'd like to dispel some thing like manifold leak.
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Re: Did someone throw a boat anchor behind my car at 4500?

Post by malcolmr18zoy »

It could also be that your air filters aren't passing enough air. Try it without the filters and see what happens. If you're using K&N filters, I'd be suspicious of the filters.
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Re: Did someone throw a boat anchor behind my car at 4500?

Post by max71 »

Thanks Malcolm. I'll try that.

I was reluctantly pushed into the K&Ns. When I was running the Huffaker set up I was using the stock air cleaners. But many people swear by them. Too many changes to know if they made a difference but I'll pull them.
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Re: Did someone throw a boat anchor behind my car at 4500?

Post by Jimmy »

If you decide to ditch the K&Ns, let me know.
As far as I know, they flow plenty of air, but perhaps a bit of other stuff, too, if not treated correctly.
That Malcolm doesn't like them is surely based on that the oiled elements won't let water through easily, and that's what Malcolm is used to driving in, at his former home on the soggy island.
In baseball, running into someone is apparently a "collision".
But doing the same thing in a car somehow makes it an "accident".
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Re: Did someone throw a boat anchor behind my car at 4500?

Post by max71 »

How often do you clean yours Jimmy?
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Re: Did someone throw a boat anchor behind my car at 4500?

Post by Steve Simmons »

Jimmy, I may have a deal for you on some brand new K&Ns, still in the box. Let me know if you're interested.
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Re: Did someone throw a boat anchor behind my car at 4500?

Post by Jimmy »

Most people clean them too frequently.
I have yet to worry about them on the Beater B, since I probably have less than 1,000 miles on them.
On my Jeep, I wait until I can't see the metal mesh anymore, at all, anywhere around the filter. But I do oil that one occasionally in between.
The trapped dirt, when oiled, helps filtering - so since the Beater B is driven almost exclusively on pavement, I doubt I'll ever have to clean those filters.
But, contrary to what I thought, you can actually get a K&N so plugged up that the motor won't start. I had that happen on my "tractor", with a big old honking filter meant for a Hilborn injection setup. Of course, it took almost 20 years of use in the dirt to achive that, and not even the cleats were visible on top at that point.
In baseball, running into someone is apparently a "collision".
But doing the same thing in a car somehow makes it an "accident".
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Jimmy
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Re: Did someone throw a boat anchor behind my car at 4500?

Post by Jimmy »

Steve Simmons wrote:Jimmy, I may have a deal for you on some brand new K&Ns, still in the box. Let me know if you're interested.
Hmm, to fit what? Okay, a B, I suppose. And knowing you, SUs, but in what sort of housing(s)?
In baseball, running into someone is apparently a "collision".
But doing the same thing in a car somehow makes it an "accident".
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Re: Did someone throw a boat anchor behind my car at 4500?

Post by Steve Simmons »

Jimmy, I'll get the model numbers for you tonight.
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Re: Did someone throw a boat anchor behind my car at 4500?

Post by Jimmy »

Thanks.
Too bad it's after Christmas, or I could've bought'em for Malcolm as a gift.
In baseball, running into someone is apparently a "collision".
But doing the same thing in a car somehow makes it an "accident".
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Re: Did someone throw a boat anchor behind my car at 4500?

Post by max71 »

Jimmy, How often do you oil them?
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Re: Did someone throw a boat anchor behind my car at 4500?

Post by Jimmy »

As soon as they start looking dry (not as reddish).
When dry they're nearly useless - except to keep birds, small pets and children out of the carbs.
In baseball, running into someone is apparently a "collision".
But doing the same thing in a car somehow makes it an "accident".
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Re: Did someone throw a boat anchor behind my car at 4500?

Post by max71 »

Time to oil mine then.
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Re: Did someone throw a boat anchor behind my car at 4500?

Post by max71 »

I sent the old dyno results to Sean Brown who recently redid the head:
I don't usually see the curves nose over that hard. What does your exhaust system consist of for both the test shown, and on the car?

Stock exhaust, stock header that's been jet coated.
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Re: Did someone throw a boat anchor behind my car at 4500?

Post by max71 »

Now I'm really confused. Look at this post I just read on a topic about Superchargers:
carlheideman
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Dave Anton does have a supercharger-specific cam and I think he dynoed in Steve Simmon's 150HP motor. That should make about 120 at the wheels. www.aptfast.com

I run the Crane 270 cam in my 1978 supercharged MGB and have made as much as 116 at the wheels--0-60 in about 7 seconds. I had one of the earliest superchargers and ran that cam because Moss asked us to for the story I did in Classic Motorsports about the blower. I'll probably switch to Dave's blower cam one of these days and compare the difference in another story.

I've also dynoed at least one MGB with one of Dave's VP11 cams and it made about 100 at the wheels with a non-ported head (just a three angle valve job)--very impressive.

A bone stock MGB engine with the blower will make about 85 at the wheels.


Then why is my non bone stock toping out at 73HP??!!!! I completely baffled now....
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Re: Did someone throw a boat anchor behind my car at 4500?

Post by Steve Simmons »

Because you don't have a supercharger.
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Re: Did someone throw a boat anchor behind my car at 4500?

Post by Jimmy »

max71 wrote:As long as you can find a way to have them go past 4500 RPMs :wink:
It's people like you, Gary, that makes it hard for me to find tachometers that only read to 4,000 rpm maximum.
Maybe I'm missing out on something, but I try to keep my B motors running at between 1,500 and 3,500 - at the most 4,000 - where they seem quite happy.
In baseball, running into someone is apparently a "collision".
But doing the same thing in a car somehow makes it an "accident".
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Re: Did someone throw a boat anchor behind my car at 4500?

Post by max71 »

Steve Simmons wrote:Because you don't have a supercharger.
Read above that. 100HP with just he VP-11 cam. And these cars a meant to be wound out. That's the fun of these engines.

If I never tried to catch you on a run I'd say you then must drive like a grandma! :lol:

I saw on HD Vids last night a London used car dealer showing a bloke what he can get for his 20K pounds. One was that Toyota(?) RS2000 which wound up to 8 grand! Wheeee. Miss my motorcycle.

The whole point of this exercise is I long ago decided to always do the job right and not cheap out. The only thing I begrudged the car was an adjustable sprocket which would negate the need for an offset key. So after all the time and expense to have the car run worse that it did before sucks. I don't think you'd be happy if your SC engine came back and was just a bump in power. You seem quite happy its putting out 150HP.
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Re: Did someone throw a boat anchor behind my car at 4500?

Post by Steve Simmons »

Gary, I never suggested that you should be happy that you have a problem in high RPMs. I will however disagree that these engines were meant to wind out. These are small bore, long stroke engines. That means lots of torque, which has nothing to do with high RPMs. They can and will rev happily all day at 4500+ RPM, but in stock form there is no need to wind the thing out to keep your speed. Of course a hotter cam, etc will usually require higher RPMs to find the power range, but I don't feel that this was intended as the primary use for the engine when it was designed.

As for the 100HP at the wheels post, I interpreted it differently. It appears they're talking about supercharged engines. There is no way that a stock engine with a blower will put out 85HP while a stock engine with a VP-11 camshaft will put out 100HP. That's roughly 135 HP at the flywheel just by changing the cam. Not a chance.
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Re: Did someone throw a boat anchor behind my car at 4500?

Post by max71 »

Jimmy wrote:Gary, I'm way too familiar with trying to use only the best and make it better...only to have it end up worse.
And, no, I haven't learned yet, either.
That's why I like also having piles, such as the Beater B, where I really don't care how it ends up running. Better is good, of course, but if not, at least the cost was minimal.
And in retrospect, the adjustable sprocket seems like a great idea.
The joke on me is I just wanted it to run like it used to. That was good enough for me which is why I tried hard to get the same cam. I didn't do anything special. I even resisted boring it out to .040 over which I really should have but I thought the walls would be scary thin even though people do this. So aside from the new cam, APT lifters, it was all stock parts - ok it does have the uprated oil pump. The intake manifold being flowed by Sean just ended up replacing the Huffaker intake that I lost due to cracking.

And yes, the extra $260 for a adjustable sprocket is trick but I figured a key is cheaper and I'd only be doing it once, right? :hammer:

BTW: I had to submit this twice. And NO I wasn't hitting preview but that's what its doing. So Malcolm submit twice. * Just read Steve's explanation. That's probably what's happening.
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Re: Did someone throw a boat anchor behind my car at 4500?

Post by max71 »

I just want to make an observation that I should win a prize for the most pages on a thread that's been hijacks two or five times. :lol:
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Re: Did someone throw a boat anchor behind my car at 4500?

Post by Jimmy »

max71 wrote:I just want to make an observation that I should win a prize for the most pages on a thread that's been hijacks two or five times. :lol:
I had noticed that, too.
But sorry, no prize...just the price in your case.
In baseball, running into someone is apparently a "collision".
But doing the same thing in a car somehow makes it an "accident".
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