New clutch woes - trouble getting into gears

[Jimmy]

Aha, Malcolm is starting to remember how much "fun" it is to pull and engine and /or transmission (especially so with the later round motor mounts).
I fully agree with him here; do try to wear the bushing in as described above before pulling everything out again.
Lucky me got to do it over because one of the clips holding the POS throwout "bearing" had come loose, somehow.
So, I spent several days figuring out how to construct a replacement crossmember piece - allowing me to take the tranny out and leave the engine in place - a setup which even earned Malcolm's approval.
Il'll gladly give to the details on how to make your own, should you end up needing to pull the trans/engine again.
It's not for a concourse vehicle, obviously, but I did it to guarantee that I'd never have to pull the tranny again, because now I can.
And to answer your poll, Gary, do what Malcolm suggested, and I think you'll be just fine.
After all, the worst case is it doesn't make things any better.

[max71]

First I want to say this is the greatest board. I very much appreciate everyone's help.

As far as running off some of the friction of the pilot bushing. I've been practicing bad driving by keeping the clutch in at stop lights and stop signs and revving the engine. No change really.

The UK board recommended this: On the other hand if it is just hard to get into gear you may have a slight warp in the plate due to miss alignment at assembly. There is a procedure that can help here, it sounds drastic but it usually works. Start the car in "top gear" then with the brakes on rev the engine hard and drop the clutch. Do this a number of times and then test your result. Dont do it so much as to "cook" the clutch, Maybe half a dozen times then test.

What do you gentleman think? I'm willing to try it.

[malcolmr18zoy]

It sounds drastic, but it's worth a try. I guess they think that you can wear the high spots off the clutch plate. Just don't get it too hot, or you might crack your flywheel or invalidate any warranty onyour clutch assuming it's faulty.
Malcolm

[max71]

Crack my flywheel?

If this isn't advisable I'd rather not create more problems...

Moss never keeps the warrantee promise on clutches. They admitted the old one had a bad pressure plate but since it went in the engine it could be user error so warrantee is invalid. So what? I have to stare at it, pay a clutch shop to test it and then claim the warrantee?

Kind of frustrated with them over these two clutches.

[Larry Kluss]

That does sound drastic. Not sure I'd have the guts to do it. Also not sure it would help.

Clutch spin: I've had the same issue in my E-type Jaguar since I got it 2 years ago, though it sounds as if yours might be a bit worse. I often couldn't get it into reverse or first. What I've figured out is putting it into 3rd stops the input shaft so it will go into reverse or 1st just fine. I went through much the same diagnosis that you have and I've narrowed it down to the pilot bushing or some issue with the clutch disc/pressure plate. My money is on the bushing being the problem in my car. For what it's worth it hasn't gotten any better since I've had the car and the motor and trans were rebuilt some 25k miles ago by the previous owner. So I suspect it's been that way since then.

So in your case, given that you just put it together and you had a bit of a time mating the trans to the motor, I think the pilot bushing is damaged or just too tight. You should not have to force the trans to the motor. Although you checked it before pressing it in, it might have become tighter after the press. The best (not necessarily the most desirable) course of action is to remove the motor/trans and recheck everything.

My opinion is that the pilot bush should be a bit on the loose side on the input shaft after being pressed into the crank. It's mainly there to keep the input shaft from whipping. If you consider all of the tolerance stack-up, you don't want it too tight or it can cause side loading (and dragging) of the shaft. I don't recall it being spec'd anywhere (maybe Malcom knows), but my gut feel is .004"-.008" diametrical clearance.

[Jimmy]

So once again, Malcolm is right. It's definitely worth a try.
Big deal if the warranty goes bye, bye - the cost of parts is minimal here.
Then again, if money is not an object, consider dumping your problems on somebody else and buy instead my left-over "time capsule" '79 Tourer.
There should be life left in its clutch with a mere 44,000 miles on the odometer, and it does shift just fine.
Of course, you could buy 20 clutch kits for the same amount of money.
I'd say drive it like you stole it, and your car just might end up working just fine.
Except, now I see that it didn't work out that way for Larry.
However, as I've mentioned on his forum in the past, you don't really need a functioning clutch to drive a car in the first place. And putting it in Third before going to First or Reverse is certainly no big deal.
Good luck, Gary.
PS. Whereabouts are you at, anyway? Seems like we could have a wrench party as Steve suggested, if yours, Adam Lombard's and my fiancee's clutches all will have to come out soon.
We could pay Malcolm a nominal fee, sit back and drink beer while he educates us on the finer points of engine removal and clutch installations. From what he told me today it's a 4-hour job, so he'd be done in 12 hours, or less.
Should we get bored, we could always invite Tanny and cut the roof off his GT while Malcolm works on the clutches.

[malcolmr18zoy]

The thing is Jimmy, my definition of educating is telling you what to do, while you do it, and I drink the beer!
Malcolm

[malcolmr18zoy]

Hi Max,
My advice, in the circumstances, would be to remove the clutch and send it to Valley Friction for rebuilding Then ream out the pilot bushing to the size of the shaft plus .010" . Then assemble it all, and drive your car. The pilot bushing is made of a self lubricating material, and would probably take a long time to wear down. Same applies to trying to wear down the friction material on the clutch plate. It's designed to resist wear.
Malcolm

[kiwimark]

Hi
this may sound a bit silly, but did you fit the clutch disk back to front. It can be done in an MGB and it will jam the pressure plate, stopping it from disengaging. Just a thought as I have done this myself when fitting a clutch with out wearing my glasses, so I could not read the "this side out" marking.

Mark

[max71]

Clutch disk is 100% in the correct way.

I'm leaning towards Malcom's advice. Nothing seems to be wearing in. I pull the engine at Steve's house not here in Santa Monica. I don't have the space or the engine lift.

I just want it working. What's a shame is the Huffaker head was botched by Burbank Speed shop last time I had a valve job so I gathered some pennies and sent it to Sean Brown. Now the engine is back its old glory and a blast to go through Topanga Canyon - as long as I don't need to shift down to 1st which rarely happens.

I'll contact Valley Friction and see what they say. Also see if Steve is up for this. If its clutch day I'm happy to lend a hand with others engines. Steve would have to be up for all this of course.

So, Malcolm. What's the secret on the trans crossmember. The last time I did a clutch it only took about 30 minutes to get it back up - this time it too 3 hours! I'd rather not drill and slot everything if possible.

[max71]

Here's an update for everyone on Valley Friction

They are no longer in N. Hollywood. Now they're in Chatsworth near Steve, That's the good news. The bad news is that I spoke to the gentleman and he was quite cantankerous. When I asked if he had specs on car he didn't even know MG was a car. He poo poo'd that maybe its a bad clutch design and nothing they can do about that. Went on that the car's old and don't expect it to work like new. Etc etc. Also he wanted the flywheel. Maybe that's normal I don't know. He wanted to surface the flywheel too and when I explained it had been surfaced and I was concerned about over surfacing he got bothered and said then its time to throw it away....

Ugh.

My dream is to pull it and run the parts over to someone who understand the car and its bits and tell me the PP and clutch are fine or should be rebuilt. No give me a lecture the car is old and badly designed. Here's their updated info:

Valley Friction Materials
9543 De Soto Ave, Chatsworth, CA
(323) 873-4291?

[Jimmy]

Well, we should have a few new and used discs and pressure plates to compare yours to, take measurements on etc.
If it turns out that you'll need new parts (in addition to the pilot bushing) you could use the ones I already bought for my girlfriend's car, and replace them later.
Largely it would depend on how long you can leave your car in Steve's driveway, I suppose.
And it's too bad the killer deal the B-Hive had on clutch kits is over.

[malcolmr18zoy]

Wow, that doesn't sound like the Valley Friction I've dealt with. are you sure it's the same company? The people I've dealt with in the past were always very helpful They were at 11817 Sherman Way, N Hollywood.
Anyway, you still need to pull it out so as to find what's wrong. It's probably the pilot bushing. Don't even touch the gearbox crossmember, just pull the engine. Jimmy made his gearbox crossmember detachable, so he can remove his overdrive gearbox without the engine. He did a nice job, and you should talk to him if you want to do the same.
Malcolm

[max71]

Its the same company.

Neither Steve nor I have any confidence just pulling the engine and the lining it up to go in. That would require one the Jhedi masters from this board supervising.

[Jimmy]

Are there two different Valley Friction locations? If so, different managers, which could explain the differences in customer relations.
If you can hold off another week or so, I'll be back in CA and would happily drink Malcolm's beer while observing the reassembly.

[max71]

The man said "We closed that location a year ago" and said its the same company. Beats me.

I just fantasize about some dirty old place with clutch spec's all the way back to the 40's. The grizzly old man blows some dust off a BMC manual commenting under his breath not seeing one of these in a while then does his thing while telling me how much better the friction material is and now the pressure plate springs are all of equal tension.

I happily pay the man and zoom through the canyon blessing his existence.

Is that too much to ask?

[Steve Simmons]

You have it backwards, or the wrong company. They closed the Chatsworth maybe two years ago. Malcolm has listed the correct location. Their address and phone number is...

Valley Friction Materials
11817 Sherman Way
North Hollywood, CA 91605
(818) 765-5174

[max71]

Sorry Steve. I just spoke to him. Then I called the NH number and the same man answered. That's when he told me they closed the NH location. Feel free to double check

[Jimmy]

Umm, maybe I should stay out of this clutch stuff. I'm not into supernatural phenomena.

[malcolmr18zoy]

It's a lot easier to line up the engine and gearbox when the gearbox is in the car. The gearbox can't move backwards or forwards, and you can adjust it's angle with a jack. The engine is on a hoist, so it can be moved in all directions, and niether of the units are on the floor, so gravity isn't a problem. Line up both units, and they should just slide together face to face. At that point you just screw in the bolts. I know you don't believe me, but there you are.
What year is your car?
Malcolm

[Steve Simmons]

They're in North Hollywood at the address I listed, trust me.

[max71]

Malcom. Its a 1971 with a late model LH gearbox w/od.

Steve is looking pretty busy. I don't know what you charge and I can't afford much. If you want to email me maybe we can discuss it if I lend a wrench. You can email me at phrarod at roadrunner dot com

Steve - ok I called again. You're right. NH is the location.

[malcolmr18zoy]

Hi,
I tried to email you at that email address, but it was returned to me. Why don't you call me on 626 309 2923.
Malcolm

[Jimmy]

Malcolm doesn't charge that much...he gets even.
Basically, he's just trying to keep a roof over his head, being one of those guys that believe a roofed car is a good thing.
Why else would he have a factory MGB hardtop, but no MGB, for example?

[max71]

Jimmy. If Steve is booked Malcolm has graciously agreed to let me come over and get all greasy so he can laugh at me and tell me how to align the engine with the gearbox in.

Do you think I could pick up your clutch assembly and take it with me in case he sees something that looks wrong with mine? If I would use it of course I'd immediately replace it.

I just know how these things go. If I show up with a pilot bushing the old one will be fine and they'll be a clutch issue. If I show up with a clutch it will be the pilot bushing.

So I thought I would show up with both