MG TC Roller Camshaft

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MG TC Roller Camshaft

Post by Steve Simmons »

As my new (9,000 mile) engine ate its lifters, and the cam is already a regrind, I've decided to take extreme measures and replace it all with a roller camshaft. It's an expensive way to go at roughly double the price of replacing a standard cam, but it should give a slight performance boost and last much longer. Parts to be replaced are cam, lifters, push rods, springs and retainers.

I'm also going to address a significant oil leak at the rear of the engine which I suspect is the lip seal conversion I so carefully installed. Something must have gone wrong, unless it's the rear oil galley plug leaking which would be far easier to remedy.

Step one is to remove the engine. Actually it's step two, but I forgot step one which is to do a compression test before pulling it all apart, just for info. I decided to pull the engine alone since I find it easier than crawling under the car to remove the drive shaft and dealing with the nearly inaccessible gearbox mounts. I may pull the gearbox also, not sure yet.
Pulling the XPAG engine
Pulling the XPAG engine
engine-pull.jpg (76.06 KiB) Viewed 15494 times
Since I forgot to do a compression test, I ran a leak down test instead. To my delight, this engine averaged only 3% leakage. One of my concerns is valve to piston clearance because I'm running high compression pistons which stick WAY above the block. To make measuring the new setup easier, I've measured the current setup with a dial indicator on top of both intake and exhaust valves, and then rotated the engine until they opened fully.
Measuring valve lift
Measuring valve lift
measurements.jpg (61.65 KiB) Viewed 15494 times
I've lost my 8x1 bolts to attach the engine to my stand so I'll be working on the floor and using a hoist while removing the oil pan, at least until I can order a replacement set of bolts. Tomorrow the head comes off and gets disassembled, followed by the oil pan and timing cover. I'd like to tip the engine on its rear to look for leaks but on an XPAG engine you can't remove the flywheel until the oil pan is off. :roll:
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Re: MG TC Roller Camshaft

Post by Steve Simmons »

Disassembly has started. First to come off was the head and everything looked good there. Gasket looks good, rockers are excellent, chambers are clean enough. Then the lifters came out and they look even worse than the last time I saw them. This is roughly 9,000 miles of wear. You can see how a couple of them weren't rotating, and it's interesting that the ones that were rotating also have the most pitting. All of the lifters look terrible, which is why this whole project started.
XPAG head
XPAG head
head.jpg (58.7 KiB) Viewed 15487 times
Lifter wear
Lifter wear
lifters1.jpg (63.86 KiB) Viewed 15487 times
Lifter wear
Lifter wear
lifters2.jpg (63.93 KiB) Viewed 15487 times
Before going farther into the engine, my next step was to investigate the rear oil leak. First the oil pan comes off and then the flywheel. It's difficult to tell for sure but I think my problem is a leaky rear core plug. Oil could have pooled there after being slung up by the flywheel, but looking at the rear seal, it has no more than the lightest mist of oil on it. The rear of the flywheel is basically dry, with slight dampness in the outer half. I don't want to put it all together and still have a leak, but I feel confident that I can leave the seal alone. The rear plug will be pulled out and a replacement put in. On top of that I plan to smear some epoxy putty around the rim and then hammer a second plug on top of the first.
Rear seal and galley plug
Rear seal and galley plug
rear-plug.jpg (74.45 KiB) Viewed 15487 times
Flywheel
Flywheel
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Re: MG TC Roller Camshaft

Post by Steve Simmons »

This morning's progress. Pulled the old cam and as suspected it was toast. All of the lobes show damage.
Camshaft
Camshaft
lobes1.jpg (43.76 KiB) Viewed 15480 times
Camshaft
Camshaft
lobes2.jpg (48.42 KiB) Viewed 15480 times
Camshaft
Camshaft
lobes3.jpg (41.84 KiB) Viewed 15480 times
The old cam bearing was never good because the only source was a type that didn't fit correctly. The result was a bad bearing surface once pressed and reamed. So I fitted a new bearing and it looks much nicer. The center and rear bearings seem ok but I will inspect further before re-using. And yes, I tabbed the bearing after I took this photo. ;)
Camshaft bearing
Camshaft bearing
cam-bearing-front.jpg (53.4 KiB) Viewed 15480 times
And then the jewelry was unboxed. I hope they work as good as they look.
XPAG Roller Cam Kit
XPAG Roller Cam Kit
roller-cam.jpg (72.87 KiB) Viewed 796 times
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Re: MG TC Roller Camshaft

Post by spitfire »

Those roller lifters are going to really give you more life in that engine.

i like this progress it looks really nice. love the tear down and build up.

Still figuring out if i should ship the MG to me in Indiana or sell it. Things like this keep me in the keep it list. Though I don't have a place for it at the moment.
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Re: MG TC Roller Camshaft

Post by Robb »

Steve,

That roller setup looks like the ultimate solution, but I thought that I'd pass on what I've heard from guys who should know. This pre-mature wear could be reduced or eliminated by use of zinc in the oil. I hope that this knowledge can benefit others.

I've been using Valvolene Racing Oil, but zinc additives are also available everywhere.
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Re: MG TC Roller Camshaft

Post by Steve Simmons »

I've always run high-zinc oils. The failure of these lifters and cams can almost certainly be attributed to the re-grind that was performed when I rebuilt the engine. The factory lifters are chill hardened which makes if questionable whether or not you can remove enough material to re-use them without re-hardening, especially if giving them a dish (which we did). I told the shop that they should be re-hardened but they assured me it would be fine. Should have listened to my instincts.

Generally speaking, the cam design in an XPAG engine is not ideal. The original parts use offset flat lifters and cam, which are prone to wear. There are aftermarket parts available to go with a tapered cam lobe and dished lifters and this is certainly better, but you still have issues to deal with.

The only notable downsides I've found with roller cams is the higher cost, and heavier valve springs. But the advantages are numerous. Performance should be improved quite a bit because of greatly improved breathing. Longevity should be double, even triple the standard setup. There is no break-in to deal with, and no need to run high levels of zinc. The driving experience is really the number one goal, and what I'm expecting there is a good deal more torque. That's really what these cars need, and short of a supercharger which would cost as much to set up as five roller cam kits, I can't think of a better way to boost engine performance on long road trips.

Of course the proof will be in the pudding!
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Re: MG TC Roller Camshaft

Post by Steve Simmons »

There were several problems at the rear seal. First, the holes in the seal housing were a bit off so it wasn't holding the seal perfectly centered over the crank flange. The way the housing is designed, it cannot be repositioned because the screws are countersunk so they self-center as they tighten. Beyond that, the crank flange itself was not round! It varied by 5 or 6 thou as it spun.
Checking for roundness at the sealing surface.
Checking for roundness at the sealing surface.
flange.jpg (65.13 KiB) Viewed 15425 times
I paid a machine shop to correct the problems, which took two weeks, and all he did was loosen the bolts, move it a little and re-tighten. He said he opened up the holes a little but I now know that isn't true, because you can't get the screws all the way out with the crank in place, and the crank was still safety wired in place. Two weeks and $40 wasted. I also asked him to machine the crank flange and modify the housing to take socket caps, but he didn't do either and I was tired of waiting on him. To add salt to the wound, he forgot to work on my flywheel also, so that's still there with him to be doweled and re-balanced, and he dinged the speedi-sleeve on the crank.

So today I took it all apart and milled the housing myself. At this point I discovered that the housing isn't perfectly round. Just great. It's close and I have no way to correct it, so I'll just let it fly. The flange may be ok with a light sanding and a new speedi-sleeve but I'll know more tomorrow.
Boring out the countersunk holes to accept button head screws.
Boring out the countersunk holes to accept button head screws.
milling.jpg (57.73 KiB) Viewed 15425 times
Next I used a centering jig around the crank flange. It was touchy with the crank flange not quite right, but with a lot of patience and several re-assemblies I got it spot on... I think.
Centering the housing over the crank flange.
Centering the housing over the crank flange.
centering1.jpg (64.58 KiB) Viewed 15425 times
Last, I removed everything, put some sealer on the upper housing (bottom of photo, engine is upside-down) and put it all back together and tightened up the bolts. Normally you seal both halves at the same time but I'm doing it one side at a time because I don't want to remove the rods from the crank.
Centering tool bolted in.
Centering tool bolted in.
centering2.jpg (56.68 KiB) Viewed 15425 times
Tomorrow when the sealer is dry, I'll attack the crank flange, the new speedi-sleeve and the second half of the housing, along with installing the seal itself. Wish me luck!
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Re: MG TC Roller Camshaft

Post by Larry Kluss »

Wow, quite an ordeal, Steve. Looks like you've solved the issue.
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Re: MG TC Roller Camshaft

Post by Steve Simmons »

This morning I cleaned up the rear flange with my custom engine spinner invention thingie and some emery cloth. With the speedi-sleeve removed I put the indicator back on the flange. The machinist told me it wasn't as bad as I thought, maybe only 2-4 thou out of round. Again he was wrong. It's just over 5 thou. I'm not entirely confident in the seal's ability to deal with this but there isn't a lot I can do about it so hopefully the other adjustments I've made will be enough to make up for this issue.
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flange-clean.jpg
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Re: MG TC Roller Camshaft

Post by Larry Kluss »

Steve, you might try looking up the engineering design data for the seal, using the brand and part number of the one you're using. Any of the major manufacturer's design catalogs should be published online, and should have information like maximum allowable runout. I don't know offhand, but .005" runout might not be that bad. Good luck.
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Re: MG TC Roller Camshaft

Post by Steve Simmons »

Some progress to report. After doing what I could to the crank flange, I installed a new Speedi-Sleeve for the seal to ride on. Hopefully sleeve retaining compound will hold it in place because that's what I had on hand. Great care was taken to get it lined up perfectly. I measured a .028" gap all around although in hind sight I should have closed that up a little tighter. But it should be ok.
Measuring clearance to seal housing
Measuring clearance to seal housing
gap.jpg (56.89 KiB) Viewed 15388 times
Completed Speedi-Sleeve
Completed Speedi-Sleeve
speedi-sleeve.jpg (36.25 KiB) Viewed 15388 times
Next up was the rear core plug. This was a suspect in my oil leaks so I went full bore on it. With a perfectly clean bore, I installed a steel plug with sleeve retainer and hammered it tight. Then on top of that I put a brass plug and hammered that tight. I resisted the urge to JB weld a third one on top of that. ;)
Rear core plugs, one on top of another.
Rear core plugs, one on top of another.
plugs.jpg (71.57 KiB) Viewed 15388 times
Finally I installed the rear seal. Unfortunately another problem cropped up - the seal doesn't sit flat in the housing. It rocks top to bottom. Also the housing is not round, another lovely issue, but nothing I can do about that. So, I lined the seal up as best I could and because the top stuck out a bit away from the housing (and therefore was not seated flat on the inside), I used some RTV to help keep the seal - and the engine oil - in place.
Very un-round.
Very un-round.
oval-hole.jpg (43.83 KiB) Viewed 15388 times
And here is the rear end, ready for oil pan and associated gaskets.
Done!
Done!
seal.jpg (57.71 KiB) Viewed 15388 times
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Re: MG TC Roller Camshaft

Post by Steve Simmons »

Progress this afternoon. The camshaft has been timed and the bottom end is torqued and safety wired.
Attachments
Camshaft Timing
Camshaft Timing
cam-timing.jpg (75.1 KiB) Viewed 15377 times
Safety Wired Nuts
Safety Wired Nuts
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Re: MG TC Roller Camshaft

Post by Steve Simmons »

Not as much progress today as planned, but the bottom end has been completed. Flywheel is on, sealed and safety wired (don't make fun of my feeble safety wiring skills). And the pan is finally installed which feels good. It's no small task though. There are several things that have to be sealed and aligned simultaneously, and a specific order to do them in. From memory, and I'm probably missing something... Adhere rear cork seal, seal half of front seal, seal front cover to engine, align front cover to oil pan and lock down, remove pan and glue both oil pan gaskets to block, fill front and rear gaps with sealer, seal front lip seal and rear cork seal to oil pan and pan to block, torque pan.
Attachments
Flywheel installed and safety wired
Flywheel installed and safety wired
flywheel.jpg (67.51 KiB) Viewed 15355 times
Bottom end all closed up
Bottom end all closed up
oilpan-installed.jpg (73 KiB) Viewed 15355 times
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Re: MG TC Roller Camshaft

Post by Steve Simmons »

Three days left to get this project done and disaster has struck! I was moving along, and decided to drop the engine back into the car before finishing up. All was well.
engine-in.jpg
engine-in.jpg (68.13 KiB) Viewed 15342 times
The new springs are also installed in the head. Shiny new parts are exciting. :)
engine-installed.jpg
engine-installed.jpg (62.13 KiB) Viewed 15342 times
Then as I was cutting push rods and pressing in the ends, in a hurry and with the wrong tools...
Broken Push Rod
Broken Push Rod
broken-rod.jpg (49.03 KiB) Viewed 15342 times
So I finished as much as I could, and ordered a new set which hopefully will arrive VERY quickly. Installed the radiator, exhaust, starter, etc, etc...
radiator-on.jpg
radiator-on.jpg (53.21 KiB) Viewed 15342 times
Then I decided to just give up and buy another TC.
tc.jpg
tc.jpg (54.01 KiB) Viewed 15342 times
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Re: MG TC Roller Camshaft

Post by whitebuffalo »

I like your thinking, break the one so just buy another! So, do you just put the broken one out on the curb a let someone else take it?
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Re: MG TC Roller Camshaft

Post by Steve Simmons »

Well I figured I could use it as a luggage trailer for the other one.
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Re: MG TC Roller Camshaft

Post by gorms68 »

He's still online, Linda must not be home yet :hammer:
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Re: MG TC Roller Camshaft

Post by Martin Keller »

Must be nice to have a garage that is big enough to hold all those cars. :thumbs:

So how many autos do you have now or are you not saying.

:drive
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Re: MG TC Roller Camshaft

Post by Steve Simmons »

Answer = too many! ;) Actually the TC isn't mine, it's Malcolm's. It's just resting here for a few days before heading further north.
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Re: MG TC Roller Camshaft

Post by Larry Kluss »

Steve Simmons wrote:Actually the TC isn't mine, it's Malcolm's. It's just resting here for a few days before heading further north.
Congrats, Malcolm :thumbs:
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Re: MG TC Roller Camshaft

Post by Steve Simmons »

New push rods arrived and are now installed. Controls connected, battery reinstalled, etc. Time to go buy more sealer for the side cover and some oil for the sump, turn the key and see what happens!
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Push rods installed
Push rods installed
engine-side.jpg (81.97 KiB) Viewed 15305 times
Shiny springs
Shiny springs
new-springs.jpg (83.92 KiB) Viewed 15305 times
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Re: MG TC Roller Camshaft

Post by malcolmr18zoy »

I'm glad you got your push rods in good time. So I guess you'll be driving the TC at the week-end.
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Re: MG TC Roller Camshaft

Post by Steve Simmons »

I went last night to buy some sealer, oil and new spark plugs. I was surprised the store had my plugs in stock, and so was the guy at the counter. He brought them out and realized they had been on the shelf back there since probably the 1980's. Check out the old packaging. Even the script is different.
spark-plugs.jpg
spark-plugs.jpg (44.39 KiB) Viewed 15282 times
So I turned the key and nothing much happened. It took quite a while to sort out the timing, not sure why. But the car did finally come to life and it sounded glorious! It revs quicker than before and runs well... until you get above 2500 RPMs at which point it stumbles and misses. I spent a few hours last night and all day today trying to figure out what's going on. In addition to the miss, the ignition lamp was stuck on and would occasionally flicker.

The first problem I identified was a wire behind the dash that had come loose, so every time the wiring harness would jiggle, the wire would lose contact. that explained the flickering ignition lamp. But the lamp was still on. Further investigation revealed that the high current wire had broken loose inside the generator, so that had to be remedied. Finally the charging system was not only charging, but stable.
generator-wire.jpg
generator-wire.jpg (79.44 KiB) Viewed 15282 times
With that out of the way, I continued diagnosing the stumble/miss. Adjusted carbs, changed coil, reinstalled old plugs, inspected wires, etc and no improvement. I swapped the dizzy plate to try a known good condenser and the car wouldn't start. As I was cranking, the starter kicked in and out and jammed itself solid. I've pulled it back from the engine, which is a major pain on a TC and even more of a pain to get it all the way out (starter switch and exhaust have to come out, and sometimes unbolt steering box and/or carbs and manifolds). So this is how the car sits now as I decide whether to continue or give up and drive something else this weekend.
starter-gear.jpg
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Re: MG TC Roller Camshaft

Post by HealeyBN7 »

Oh Steve, you are so close....
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Re: MG TC Roller Camshaft

Post by malcolmr18zoy »

It's strange that it wouldn't start with a different condenser. That would indicate an ignition problem, perhaps.
Malcolm
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