Kubota B6000 4x4
- HealeyBN7
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Kubota B6000 4x4
Seeing we are on a farm equipment bent, I thought it would be appropriate to provide a little insight into our early '70s Kubota B6000 as we are headed into an engine tear down.
This is one of Kubota's earliest Japanese imports into the US. It is a two cylinder diesel, producing all of 13.5 HP. This model is the 4x4 variant with lockable rear axle, six forward speeds and two reverse. The bucket is 36" which makes it one of the smallest working loaders. It is unclear if Kubota intended to buck the trend with PTO direction or limit attachments to their proprietary line, but the rear PTO and undercarriage PTO both turn counter clockwise. Attach a standard mower deck and you would be polishing grass, not cutting it.
We have had it for 15+years and it is getting hard to start. A compression test reveals 410psi in cylinder #1 and 200psi in cylinder #2. Kubota spec calls for at least 350psi up to 450psi... and it knocks at startup.
Searching for parts reveals that most everything is still available. Should pistons be in the cards, it has "dry" liners so I'll need a machine shop and education on assembly. Documentation is sparse. The big service manual devotes one full page to engine assembly with lots of early Japanese translations about not messing up the timing gears and fuel pump. Everything else points to torque values.
I am starting the tear down this afternoon. Wish me luck:)
Dean
This is one of Kubota's earliest Japanese imports into the US. It is a two cylinder diesel, producing all of 13.5 HP. This model is the 4x4 variant with lockable rear axle, six forward speeds and two reverse. The bucket is 36" which makes it one of the smallest working loaders. It is unclear if Kubota intended to buck the trend with PTO direction or limit attachments to their proprietary line, but the rear PTO and undercarriage PTO both turn counter clockwise. Attach a standard mower deck and you would be polishing grass, not cutting it.
We have had it for 15+years and it is getting hard to start. A compression test reveals 410psi in cylinder #1 and 200psi in cylinder #2. Kubota spec calls for at least 350psi up to 450psi... and it knocks at startup.
Searching for parts reveals that most everything is still available. Should pistons be in the cards, it has "dry" liners so I'll need a machine shop and education on assembly. Documentation is sparse. The big service manual devotes one full page to engine assembly with lots of early Japanese translations about not messing up the timing gears and fuel pump. Everything else points to torque values.
I am starting the tear down this afternoon. Wish me luck:)
Dean
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- Steve Simmons
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Re: Kubota B6000 4x4
Better you than me!
- HealeyBN7
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Re: Kubota B6000 4x4
Since you came over to help, it was you:) Thank you by the way.Steve Simmons wrote:Better you than me!
In this photo you can see the massive 577cc engine. All two cylinders. The lever on the valve cover pushes the valves open so the starter can spin a bit faster. Nice to be able to lift the head with no straining And here is 70mm piston pulled from its bore. The head looked good, and the pistons didn't have any excessive damage, but look at the gaps in the rings. I think I found the low compression issue. What should be ~.01, is actually closer to .2 Parts on order...
Dean
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Re: Kubota B6000 4x4
Good deal Dean ! .
I bet you can order first over size piston rings and grind them to a precise gap you'll like better .
Look hard at the valve guides too as they often cause smoking on Diesels when everything else is O.K. .
We had small Kubota tractors in the 1990's they were *very* good , reliable and sturdy so they never came in for service until they'd refuse to start , I was told we couldn't get parts for anything over 10 years old (pre Internet days) so they all went off to salvage , a waste it seemed to me .
Please write detailed repair comments like Steve does , I love it .
I bet you can order first over size piston rings and grind them to a precise gap you'll like better .
Look hard at the valve guides too as they often cause smoking on Diesels when everything else is O.K. .
We had small Kubota tractors in the 1990's they were *very* good , reliable and sturdy so they never came in for service until they'd refuse to start , I was told we couldn't get parts for anything over 10 years old (pre Internet days) so they all went off to salvage , a waste it seemed to me .
Please write detailed repair comments like Steve does , I love it .
-Nate
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Re: Kubota B6000 4x4
It turns out that everything you read on the interwebs is not true. The Kubota B6000 does not have dry liners, they are as wet as the liners in a TR3. Here is a picture of one of them sitting on top of the block after it was encouraged with a little help of my press. It is held in place at the top with a press fit into the block and the bottom has two o-rings recessed into the bore.HealeyBN7 wrote: Searching for parts reveals that most everything is still available. Should pistons be in the cards, it has "dry" liners so I'll need a machine shop and education on assembly. Documentation is sparse.
Dean
The one thing the service manual does emphasize, is not getting the timing messed up.
Here is a picture of the gear driven timing arrangement. If you see Mickey's face here, his left ear is the cam for the fuel pump which deliverers a no kidding 2000psi. The right ear is the valve cam. In the center (nose) is an idler gear. Below that is the crank shaft and the gear to the lower right is the oil pump. It is the only gear that is not timed.
Oh, while I was writing this update look what arrived at the door. Just four days from ordering parts, all the way from Cyprus (in the middle of the Mediterranean) a box of rebuild parts...
I am still waiting on gaskets and small parts from the US. The injectors are with a rebuilder in Oregon and the head is at Bimmerheads getting refreshed. fun fun
Dean
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Re: Kubota B6000 4x4
Wow ~ new liners etc. - did you even measure them for taper and egg shaping or just scrap 'em right off the bat ? .
Hose do the crank journals look ? .
Who's re sizing the connecting rods ? .
Cam , lobes and followers ? I'm loving this thread but needing more pix .
Hose do the crank journals look ? .
Who's re sizing the connecting rods ? .
Cam , lobes and followers ? I'm loving this thread but needing more pix .
-Nate
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Re: Kubota B6000 4x4
Nate. Here is where I am at.VWNate1 wrote:Good deal Dean ! .
I bet you can order first over size piston rings and grind them to a precise gap you'll like better .
Wow ~ new liners etc. - did you even measure them for taper and egg shaping or just scrap 'em right off the bat ? .
How do the crank journals look ? .
Who's re sizing the connecting rods ? .
Cam , lobes and followers ? I'm loving this thread but needing more pix .
I mashed some of your comments together.
Regarding the liners both had a pretty good sized uneven ridge. I didn't have access to a cylinder bore gauge, but I moved the used ring up and down the bore with the piston to hold it perpendicular and I could see the gap change and some light in areas where the bore must be oval. That was enough evidence to send these on their way.
Since, Kubota OEM and the Kubota aftermarket doesn't offer an oversize kit for the pistons or rings, I just assumed they were all replaced as a kit and ordered up!
The main bearings and crank journals look excellent. They have standard bearings in them now with no real wear. I don't think I am going to polish the crank, just plasti-gauge, renew the bearings and reinstall it.
The connecting rods and bearings are also in good shape with standard bearings. I plan to just slap new bearings in them as well without having them resized. I need to find my plasti-gauge today and see how they measure up, but I have hope. I did put them on my digital scale and there is a bit of a weight difference between the rods, so I know it crazy, but I'll probably have to take a bit off the end boss on the heavy one just to say I did:)
The cam and lobes look good. The followers are just so-so. There is no pitting, but on a couple there is evidence that they are not rotating freely. I'll shoot some pictures and get your feedback. New followers are not available, so I would have to have these rebuilt and I have mixed feelings about that.
The engine has a max RPM of 2,700, limited by a ball governor built into the fuel cam - yes, you will want to see pictures of that MacGyver; and the valve springs are very light, so the cam and lifters are not working hard, so I am inclined to leave them alone. Not sure.
On the small end of the rods, these are bushed and have fully floating wrist pins. They are held in with cir-clips. The bushed ends have some play. I didn't order new small end bushings - forgot, but they are available at $6 each. If I replace them I don't know if they will need sizing/reaming or will fit out of the box. With a dry fit, I can feel a little play in the wrist pin to rod and it seems even in all directions, but I don't know how to get an accurate measurement in such a small bore. Plasti-gauge won't help me here and the manual provides no guidance on small end tolerances. I am guessing .001 to .0015 would be where I want to end up, but how to tell...hmm.
What machine shop is going to want to be bothered with two rod ends and maybe four lifters to chase?
Dean
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Re: Kubota B6000 4x4
Dean ;
Any Machine Shop that'd pass on the job , would never get any more of my work .
If the new rod bearing shells take a good shove to fit the big ends of the rods , the rods are prolly fine .
Mostly I find the new bearing shells simply drop in and this _always_ means improper fitment to the crank journal , and low oiling pressure even if the clearance by Plasti-Gauge looks O.K. .
If you're competent to press in new wrist bushings *and* hone them perfectly square to the rod , do so ~ I'm not that good so if anything with a connecting rod isn't up to snuff , I resize them . not terribly $pendy . at this point , maybe new ones are in the budget ? .
*DO* take the time to balance those rods to ZERO grams ! .
I hope you paid close attention to what lifter went where as mixing them against used cam lobes is a serious No - No .
I'd like to see them but unless they're really bad , I'd prolly re use them ~ the all important surface hardening is usually only .001" or so so when you have them re ground , they look pretty but don't last long .
Of course you'll be using some sort of cam breakin lubricant and following the RPM instructions to the letter....
Dry pistons , rings and cylinders too ~ they'll break in in the first 60 seconds of initial operation and seal and last far better / longer .
Remember : my Tech Advice is free and worth far less than you pay for it , be sure to balance it against what anyone else says , I just like overhauling and always have , I do a lot of it and always have good results .
Any Machine Shop that'd pass on the job , would never get any more of my work .
If the new rod bearing shells take a good shove to fit the big ends of the rods , the rods are prolly fine .
Mostly I find the new bearing shells simply drop in and this _always_ means improper fitment to the crank journal , and low oiling pressure even if the clearance by Plasti-Gauge looks O.K. .
If you're competent to press in new wrist bushings *and* hone them perfectly square to the rod , do so ~ I'm not that good so if anything with a connecting rod isn't up to snuff , I resize them . not terribly $pendy . at this point , maybe new ones are in the budget ? .
*DO* take the time to balance those rods to ZERO grams ! .
I hope you paid close attention to what lifter went where as mixing them against used cam lobes is a serious No - No .
I'd like to see them but unless they're really bad , I'd prolly re use them ~ the all important surface hardening is usually only .001" or so so when you have them re ground , they look pretty but don't last long .
Of course you'll be using some sort of cam breakin lubricant and following the RPM instructions to the letter....
Dry pistons , rings and cylinders too ~ they'll break in in the first 60 seconds of initial operation and seal and last far better / longer .
Remember : my Tech Advice is free and worth far less than you pay for it , be sure to balance it against what anyone else says , I just like overhauling and always have , I do a lot of it and always have good results .
-Nate
- HealeyBN7
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Re: Kubota B6000 4x4
Nate,
Excellent advice. Yes, I did keep the lifters in order. Here is a photo of the business ends. You can not feel any of the visible wear in the surfaces. The photo brings out the worst, which is good - like a magic eye:) Here are the new liners sitting in their bores. Overnight they were wrapped in plastic and packed in crushed ice in the freezer. Yes, Donna reviewed and approved. Once I get the block back on the press and I should be able to install them this morning.
And rebuilt injectors. One week turnaround, friendly detailed follow-up calls to me with no prompting when then arrived, explained what they found and what they are doing with cost and parts. That one week included shipping on both ends. Now, that's the way to run a business. No way I can hone those small end bushings square myself - impossible. They are either going back in as is, or new bushings professionally installed. Open to any recommendations for a machine shop that will deal with a rod end service and not drag it out for months... I just want to chuck them in a small box and send them off without a ton of machine shop BS, two hundred follow up calls and lost parts. Can you tell I have some scarring?
Dean
Excellent advice. Yes, I did keep the lifters in order. Here is a photo of the business ends. You can not feel any of the visible wear in the surfaces. The photo brings out the worst, which is good - like a magic eye:) Here are the new liners sitting in their bores. Overnight they were wrapped in plastic and packed in crushed ice in the freezer. Yes, Donna reviewed and approved. Once I get the block back on the press and I should be able to install them this morning.
And rebuilt injectors. One week turnaround, friendly detailed follow-up calls to me with no prompting when then arrived, explained what they found and what they are doing with cost and parts. That one week included shipping on both ends. Now, that's the way to run a business. No way I can hone those small end bushings square myself - impossible. They are either going back in as is, or new bushings professionally installed. Open to any recommendations for a machine shop that will deal with a rod end service and not drag it out for months... I just want to chuck them in a small box and send them off without a ton of machine shop BS, two hundred follow up calls and lost parts. Can you tell I have some scarring?
Dean
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Re: Kubota B6000 4x4
Hi Dean,
A good machine shop I would use is 1st Point Mechanical Design & Fabrication in Simi Valley.
Tony is a perfectionist and dose a lot of very precise work for Boregyde, Inc..
His phone number is 805-583-2646 and the address is 2225 1 st St. Ste 107 Simi Valley, CA. 93065..
Tell Tony I sent you if you decide to use him to do the stuff you need machined.
A good machine shop I would use is 1st Point Mechanical Design & Fabrication in Simi Valley.
Tony is a perfectionist and dose a lot of very precise work for Boregyde, Inc..
His phone number is 805-583-2646 and the address is 2225 1 st St. Ste 107 Simi Valley, CA. 93065..
Tell Tony I sent you if you decide to use him to do the stuff you need machined.
Martin Keller
Ventura, Ca.
Ventura, Ca.
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Re: Kubota B6000 4x4
Dean ;
i'm glad you paid attention m that's why I mentioned the square part .
Maybe Steve has the jig in his Shop but very few do .....
I'm casting about for a good machine shop my ownself .
i'm glad you paid attention m that's why I mentioned the square part .
Maybe Steve has the jig in his Shop but very few do .....
I'm casting about for a good machine shop my ownself .
-Nate
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Re: Kubota B6000 4x4
For the most part I am still waiting on gaskets and bearings.
I had a friend stop by who is a senior level diesel mechanic for large applications. He took one look at the bores and rings and laughed -"No warranty for you - you "dusted" the motor." He could tell by the ring wear that it was run without good air filtration. Well, yeah the filter canister was broken and I didn't want to spend $29 for a replacement...
Since I had the sleeves, I chilled them overnight and popped them in the bores with the help of a press.
The sleeves are buried in this crushed ice cave. Here you can see the sleeves in their protective bags. It probably wasn't worth the hassle of protecting them from the "water" as they quickly attracted condensation the moment they were removed. A small application of high heat sleeve retainer for the next owner to deal with... Because balancing just seems like the right thing to do. I didn't bother trying to get the top end and bottom end matched. It was pretty obvious that one rod had a much larger bottom end boss (10 grams larger), so once that was removed, I called it a day. The grinding marks are polished off to relieve stress cracking when RPMs exceed 2,700. Here is my diesel watch with fresh bores. I really like wet liner engines. So practical. It will probably be a week or so until I can send the rods in for the small end work. The top end bearing hasn't arrived from the great state of Georgia. Never mind that the sleeves came all the way from Cyprus ON THE FAR EASTERN END IN THE MIDDLE OF THE MEDITERRANEAN SEA and got here last week.
The guys working on the head said it needs guides. If I bought replacements at Kubota they are $60/guide. Valves are $80 each. The machinist is going to see what can be fabricated locally. Good thing there are not 24 values in this head!
With a pause for parts, I decided to fix the a small clunk in the Lotus steering. It needs a few shims in the steering rack ball joints which are due to arrive shortly. So while I am waiting on Kubota and Lotus parts, I decided to take the Range Rover front suspension apart. It needs new swivel pins bearings and seals. Now that is a messy project, and it is also now waiting on parts from the UK and occupying the lift. Hmm. What else can I take apart?
Warning, if you come over you risk dis-assembly. I am in that kind of mood.
Dean
I had a friend stop by who is a senior level diesel mechanic for large applications. He took one look at the bores and rings and laughed -"No warranty for you - you "dusted" the motor." He could tell by the ring wear that it was run without good air filtration. Well, yeah the filter canister was broken and I didn't want to spend $29 for a replacement...
Since I had the sleeves, I chilled them overnight and popped them in the bores with the help of a press.
The sleeves are buried in this crushed ice cave. Here you can see the sleeves in their protective bags. It probably wasn't worth the hassle of protecting them from the "water" as they quickly attracted condensation the moment they were removed. A small application of high heat sleeve retainer for the next owner to deal with... Because balancing just seems like the right thing to do. I didn't bother trying to get the top end and bottom end matched. It was pretty obvious that one rod had a much larger bottom end boss (10 grams larger), so once that was removed, I called it a day. The grinding marks are polished off to relieve stress cracking when RPMs exceed 2,700. Here is my diesel watch with fresh bores. I really like wet liner engines. So practical. It will probably be a week or so until I can send the rods in for the small end work. The top end bearing hasn't arrived from the great state of Georgia. Never mind that the sleeves came all the way from Cyprus ON THE FAR EASTERN END IN THE MIDDLE OF THE MEDITERRANEAN SEA and got here last week.
The guys working on the head said it needs guides. If I bought replacements at Kubota they are $60/guide. Valves are $80 each. The machinist is going to see what can be fabricated locally. Good thing there are not 24 values in this head!
With a pause for parts, I decided to fix the a small clunk in the Lotus steering. It needs a few shims in the steering rack ball joints which are due to arrive shortly. So while I am waiting on Kubota and Lotus parts, I decided to take the Range Rover front suspension apart. It needs new swivel pins bearings and seals. Now that is a messy project, and it is also now waiting on parts from the UK and occupying the lift. Hmm. What else can I take apart?
Warning, if you come over you risk dis-assembly. I am in that kind of mood.
Dean
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Re: Kubota B6000 4x4
I'm glad you're stuck for parts. Working so fast, you're making me look bad.
You can come over here for something to do, but trust me it's worse.
You can come over here for something to do, but trust me it's worse.
- VWNate1
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Re: Kubota B6000 4x4
Progress ! .
A good Machinist can usually measure a valve or guide and match it as they're fairly standard...
I remember my 1965 Harley - Davidson Pan Head had Cadillac valves , I've forgotten what guides .
Tom , of the now closed Verbeck's Machine Shop , said there's lots of 7 MM valves out there and many newer engines use basically Mazda valves , he made a similar comment about the guides , I never use cast iron valve guides , he said not sweat , just match the inner and outer diameters then machine the length to suit and press 'em on in....
A good Machinist can usually measure a valve or guide and match it as they're fairly standard...
I remember my 1965 Harley - Davidson Pan Head had Cadillac valves , I've forgotten what guides .
Tom , of the now closed Verbeck's Machine Shop , said there's lots of 7 MM valves out there and many newer engines use basically Mazda valves , he made a similar comment about the guides , I never use cast iron valve guides , he said not sweat , just match the inner and outer diameters then machine the length to suit and press 'em on in....
-Nate
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Re: Kubota B6000 4x4
Nice work as usual, Dean. It should run like new when done! One note on chilling the sleeves. You probably didn't need to bother. By my calculations it only reduced the diameter about 8 tenths (.0008"). Chilling or heating aluminum parts for press fits can be very useful, but the coefficient of thermal expansion of steel and iron is so low, it really doesn't help.
Keep the updates coming!
Keep the updates coming!
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Re: Kubota B6000 4x4
Thanx Larry ~
I often chill bearings / races in the freezer overnight to help them assemble then I wonder if I did a thing wrong as the fit is occasionally still very tight as I'm driving them home....
Old Japanese Motocycle cylinder heads in the 1950's & 1960's were designed to have the valve guides banged in and out by a hammer in the workshop..... what the heck ?! .
I often chill bearings / races in the freezer overnight to help them assemble then I wonder if I did a thing wrong as the fit is occasionally still very tight as I'm driving them home....
Old Japanese Motocycle cylinder heads in the 1950's & 1960's were designed to have the valve guides banged in and out by a hammer in the workshop..... what the heck ?! .
-Nate
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Re: Kubota B6000 4x4
Still waiting on a few parts before sending the in the rods for machine work. After speaking to the machine shop, I decided to polish the crank and refurbish the lifters just so there are no shortcuts...
While I am waiting, I decided to address the caution and operational stickers on hood, fenders and various places. When I bought the tractor, all were legible, but 15 additional years outside has done them in. Exact replacements are not available and when found are superseded to "modern" equivalents. I like the cheeky vintage Japanese stickers just fine so I decided to make my own.
Using photos of the originals, I scanned them into a drawing package and printed them on aluminum foil using my laser printer. You read that right - aluminum foil. The foil was taped to a paper backing to allow it to feed. The foil prints were then laminated and a double sided sticker backing applied. Pretty cool wouldn't you say. Didn't take long nor cost any real money. Possibilities??? Enjoy,
Dean
While I am waiting, I decided to address the caution and operational stickers on hood, fenders and various places. When I bought the tractor, all were legible, but 15 additional years outside has done them in. Exact replacements are not available and when found are superseded to "modern" equivalents. I like the cheeky vintage Japanese stickers just fine so I decided to make my own.
Using photos of the originals, I scanned them into a drawing package and printed them on aluminum foil using my laser printer. You read that right - aluminum foil. The foil was taped to a paper backing to allow it to feed. The foil prints were then laminated and a double sided sticker backing applied. Pretty cool wouldn't you say. Didn't take long nor cost any real money. Possibilities??? Enjoy,
Dean
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Re: Kubota B6000 4x4
Nicely done!
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Re: Kubota B6000 4x4
Wow! That is really cool. But, you don't really want to put those beautiful new decals on that old paint job, do you?
- Steve Simmons
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Re: Kubota B6000 4x4
I see Larry knows how to cost Dean time and money as well as I do.
- HealeyBN7
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Re: Kubota B6000 4x4
That's it. I am drawing the line on tractor paint.
Sadly it has better paint then the Peerless, Warwick, and Range Rover.
Stickers are going on over the scratches!
Dean
Sadly it has better paint then the Peerless, Warwick, and Range Rover.
Stickers are going on over the scratches!
Dean
- tannyo
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Re: Kubota B6000 4x4
You mean you're not doing a "frame off" restoration?
- Steve Simmons
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Re: Kubota B6000 4x4
There isn't such a thing as a frame-off tractor restoration. More like a "frame apart" restoration.
- Larry Kluss
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Re: Kubota B6000 4x4
Now that is a smart decision!HealeyBN7 wrote:Stickers are going on over the scratches!
- Steve Simmons
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1937 MG SA Saloon
1946 John Deere AN
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1965 MGB
1967 MGB GT (UK-Spec)
1967 Austin Healey 3000 BJ8
1969 MGC GTS - Location: Co-Nay-Ho Valley
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Re: Kubota B6000 4x4
I've never known Dean to be that smart. Usually he dives in head first no matter what the consequences to his time and bank account.